69 - Couples & Truffles. Is psychedelic assisted couple therapy the 2.0 version?

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This episode is about couples and (magic) truffles - Yes, we mean psychedelic assisted couples therapy. So why could this type of therapy be groundbreaking for the coming years? Why could it be a version of therapy 2.0? And if so, what would it look like? Who would you and your partner be, if you met without the trauma you might carry with you? Today, we got two experts, who are executing an interesting version of truffle assisted couples therapy. Anne talks to the therapist Jeanien Souren and psychiatrist Hans van Wechem, both are in charge of couples therapy at Field Trip in Amsterdam.

With an extensive professional career in mental health, Jeanine Souren holds degrees in psychology, psychotherapy, clinical sexology and couples & family therapy. She is accredited and licensed in the Netherlands and has worked as a lead clinician in several mental health settings. She is passionate about the therapeutic potential of psychedelics in combination with psychotherapy. Jeanine believes that by tapping into the deep psyche through psychedelics, suppressed patterns, emotions and beliefs can be made conscious again, allowing for healthy change.

Hans van Wechem has almost 30 years of experience in psychiatry and started his career as a registered couples and family therapist before specializing in (group) psychotherapy of patients with early childhood trauma and attachment disorders. After a life-changing psychedelic experience, he recognized the potential of psychedelics in therapy. He now contributes to projects such as MAPS in their efforts to investigate MDMA for the treatment of PTSD and has a wide network in the psychedelic community. His main interest lies in contributing to a future in which the use of psychedelics will become widely accepted, both as an evidence-based treatment and as a powerful catalyst for personal and spiritual growth.


Anne Philippi 0:03

Welcome to the new health club show, Hans cvan Wechem and Janine Souren. I'm super excited to have you on the show not only because I'm a huge fan of field trip, but also because you guys are, let's say, the people at Field TripAmsterdam for psychedelic couples therapy. So and since this is a really new topic in the field, you guys should please explain what that is


Jeanine Souren 0:36
So you're absolutely right. And it is a new field that we are entering here at filter, because we are actually firm believers of deepening relationships, or the potential of deepening a relationship, when we combine couples therapy with a psychedelic journey. So we have the fortunate position of field trip and after them that we have qualified, and licensed couples therapists who made a program and Hans and me are leading this, we made a program for couples that are looking to strengthen their relationship or to deepen their relationship, and this program will be launched January of next year.

Anne Philippi 1:21
So and how do we have to imagine this? So a couple comes in and does psychedelics together? Or is that like a separate experience? And then you kind of reunite afterwards? Yeah,

Hans van Wachem 1:35
I think first of all, both of them will get their individual screening beforehand. Like we do individual clients as well, because we want to know if people are legible to join the program. And as you know, we use in an exclusion criteria, so people have been mature enough and stable enough to be able to integrate whatever, what might come up during the psychedelic experience. And, as you know, psychedelic experience in itself are quite unpredictable. Yeah, and there, it might be an understatement for a lot of people as well. And I think the beauty of it is that it will really get people out of their old patterns. And relational issues are always about patterns that people find really difficult to give up. Because in that sense, an old pattern is another word for sort of security. That's what you know. And psychedelic experience, as you now is a way of resetting, resetting the brain, resetting and breaking open old patterns. So you can start from other from another perspective. But you have to be able to sort of speak the same language. And that's why I think, couple therapy approach embedded within a traditional structure and psychotherapy as we know it. It's never been done before, but it is absolutely breaking new grounds and enables both partners to talk out of a new era, a new now a new experience, which psychedelic experience in itself always is. Right, you have to speak the same language, so to speak.

Anne Philippi 3:39
So but but so you kind of individually decide if they would take the truffles together, or separately, it's like an individual decision for each couple.

Jeanine Souren 3:53
Yeah, actually decided that the couples therapy hours are spent together as a couple but the screening and the actual inner journey are independent, they can be at the same time, but they will be in separate rooms so that someone can fully focus entering their own inner landscape and not feel any inhibitions by the partner. But right after the inner journey, we continue with the with the couples therapy process.

Hans van Wachem 4:25
Because we found that being able to experience a psychedelic experience to the fullest, it is all about being able to surrender, to surrender to the experience itself. And as long as you have to keep one part of your mind still present in controlling an environment or like within couples, there's always a part of you that is sort of occupied with how your partner is doing doing. So that is sort of maybe an inner conflict, that part of your brain wants to have control over the outside world. While at the same time you're being invited in sometime even pushed into letting go and surrendering. So we give me a lot of thoughts about what, how to approach this, whether or not we should allow both partners to have an experience at the same time, if that would be more beneficial than having them have their separate experiences, and having them talk about it afterwards, within the frame of a psycho therapeutical approach.

Anne Philippi 5:46
Okay. And I mean, I feel like couples therapy has this weird reputation. And you have now so many movies and TV shows, the classic scene is like the capitalism cabinets, therapy, and it's horrible. The therapist is stupid, or like, nobody likes them. So, but at the same time, like, it seems to be a very big need in society, because it my experiences that are my perception is it's in every movie, now there's a scene with a couple of therapists suddenly, so And of course, a lot of people say, Oh, God, now those people have to go to Capitol serve you which means the end of the relationship is near. So but psychedelic couples therapy has, like such a different, or will have such a different impact on a couple. So and maybe you can just for people who would really like to look into this, which I feel are a lot could explain what will be the difference between the classic couples therapy, and to once the let's say, the couples and truffles? Idea?

Jeanine Souren 6:59
That's a really good, really good question. If with your permission answer, I thought about that too, because I have been and just like Hans a couple therapists for a long time, but this really is the next frontier. Yeah, this really allows people to have the the dialogue, the inner dialogue that no therapist has ever been able to break through before and with the increased insights, due to the inner dialogue, of psychological flexibility increases, and thus it has an immediate impact on the relationship, because all of a sudden, what really matters is becomes very clear. So trivial trivialities, like, you know, the the regular conflicts of withdrawing and attacking, it all goes into a different structure. So the potential of sharing a psychedelic experience and doing couples therapy means just by investing in relationship trajectory, you give it attention, but attention to such an extent, it must grow whatever you feed grows. So I think it's going to be very special, it doesn't always mean that the relationship is going to be happily ever after or not, not at all. It's not our intention either. But it does deepen your own insight. And that makes conversations a lot more significant, often in relationship, because how often do couples live under the same roof, and not even see each other. But this one, with this experience, you look at one another and you really see one another again,

Hans van Wachem 8:45
unless you understand all relationships are a representation of the relationship that you have with yourself. So every thing that you project on the outside world is stuff that you don't recognize as belonging to yourself in the first place. So becoming aware of what it is that you're projecting. And sometimes that can be really confronting during psychedelic experience, because it's been shown to you in a sometimes really direct way. I see you nodding your head. Yeah, I think. So I think it's all about improving the relationship that you have with yourself. Yeah. And as positive spin off, I think he will become more aware of what it is that you do in the relationship with someone else, including your partner. And I think another difference might be is that well, the, let's call it already the classical approach, or we're looking ahead. Yeah, typical approach of partner relational therapy is always problem oriented.

Anne Philippi 9:59
Right? Exactly.

Hans van Wachem 10:01
People will ask for therapy. And like you saying, sometimes when it's two to 12, or most of the times when it's five past 12? Yeah. Well, this could be in an edit in deepening an already solid relationship to another level. And that will be more out of curiosity towards your partner and yourself. So it's not that problem oriented, necessarily.

Anne Philippi 10:37
But I mean, I find it also fascinating what you Janine, what you said earlier that, that, let's say, if you decide to separate afterwards, the separation is really authentic. And not like, oh, we should separate because so and so. And so. And I mean, it had this my first experience with truffles afterwards. I really was able to No, some people might hate the second question, but I was able to conscious uncouple from a person, that I was not an assault in the trip that we were not a couple. And it was a very first of all, before the psychedelic experience, it was a very difficult separation. And afterwards, I've seen and that was so interesting. I've seen in the trip that that person, a man was actually a gay person. In my trip, I saw it. And I always had this kind of intuition, but I was like, now how should this be, it can't be like, so and then later on in after the separation, this turned out to be true. So and, but while I experience it in a trip, I didn't even know that that it would be just like maybe something that came to me in the in the psychedelic experience, but I was really able to completely kind of disengage in a very peaceful way. And today, if I meet that person, I'm like, Oh, God, this is my export. I totally forget about it. It's so interesting how this can lead you to lead you out of this trajectory of like, why are we not together anymore? What did go wrong? That for years and years of, of a lifetime? Almost, I would say,

Jeanine Souren 12:27
yeah. Like I'm hearing you. And actually, I was also thinking of conscious uncoupling. Because it's a famous term, but I must say, and we are very careful, it was literally interpreting what people experience in the journey, because it can also be symbolic. And then with the therapeutic part, after the inner journey, we talk about potential meaning of the symbolism that someone has been through and what it could mean in the current relationship. So certainly, then the conscious awareness increases of how you relate.

Anne Philippi 13:04
Mm hmm. Okay. And I mean, I feel like the most popular reason why people get into couples therapy is because one of the one part of the couple have had an affair, right. I mean, and since Esther Perel, we know that the number one, no, oh, no,

Hans van Wachem 13:24
Well, therapy, because they say, here's the problem, and I'm coming too.

Anne Philippi 13:29
okay. Okay.

Jeanine Souren 13:32
Can you fix the other person?

Anne Philippi 13:34
Okay, exactly. So but what is your what, what would you say is then the approach and psychedelic therapy like the, let's say, how would you approach the affair topic?

Jeanine Souren 13:46
Well, we all during the screening, we made a point, ask about secrets. And that's why we have an individual screening at the beginning. Because if there are secrets, we really need to find a way how is this going to benefit or not? Or how are we going to go about unspoken things, but if like, for example, an affair is out in the open, we try to find out more about the meaning of an affair or the way that lead to the affair art. It can be many things but in the first session after the screening, we map the relationship but we also met the individual so we look at the history the attachment issues and the relationship dynamic because it takes it really does take two to tango, that's another open door. But so so we really pay attention to fundamental factors that can play a role in well how does it what is the how and the why of the affair.

Anne Philippi 14:53
Okay, interesting. And so that means also it sounds like you already have had clients That underwent together like, like couple, a couple of couples that underwent the the truffle therapy, or is it? Is it something you already researched? A little bit? Right? I guess?

Jeanine Souren 15:12
We've done a lot of private research. We're going to the program in January. So we are also, you know, we obviously, we've also done research to the MDMA, couples protocol, but that was where one party was suffering from PTSD. And the other partner was taken into the process. But there has not been any published research of silence in couples therapy.

Anne Philippi 15:44
Wow. So you're the first around basically,

Jeanine Souren 15:47
the pioneers? Yeah. And we obviously we've we've explored different pathways ourselves.

Anne Philippi 15:56
But why do you think that truffles are so are actually a good compound for this kind of therapy?

Hans van Wachem 16:05
Oh, well, a lots of ways to approach this. And I don't think we need specifically to put this quality up on truffels on other side, I think, again, it's a possibility to break open old patterns. And you can do it through talking making people more people more aware, and, and practicing. And we know that intensity of any experience has a relationship with the outcome of it. So we know that talking for half an hour, on a casual basis, doesn't have the same impact of doing intensive retreat where you are working on the same topic for a number of days. So the more intense the experience is, the more profound it leaves, it can change something within you. And psychedelic experiences, as you now most of the times are really intense. So it creates an inner necessity for wanting to change. And in general, you can say there are at least four factors that people need to comply with in order to change at all. First of them has to be a necessity. Now, is there a necessity in partner relational issues? Well, that's something that you really need to find out when you start. Because one of the partners might think there is while the other partner is already gone, and sort of guy is going through the motions to sort of being able to say, I've really tried to save this relationship, and already had an hidden agenda. That his that his partner or her partner didn't know about, right? So you have to tune in, is there a necessity from both sides? The higher the necessity, the higher the change that people want to change. To our people, have people, the people have a focus and objective. They want to work at what is their fantasy about how the relationship might be or how they want it to be. So is that their directive? There has to be an agreement there as well. If one says the relationship would really improve, if you would allow me to see more men or more women, that we have an open relationship, and the other partner says, well, that's not typically what I had in mind, then you have to find out what the differences are. thirds. And third thing is, are they willing to take full responsibility for their own part in the relationship? As long as you keep externalizing your problems and make the other person responsible for your own well being? It won't be that fifth. And fourth, really important, are you willing to keep on working on it? So that's the integration part. Otherwise, it would be a one off experience. Wonderful, but if you don't follow up on it, yeah. Well, waste of effort, isn't it?

Jeanine Souren 19:53
And, when Hans says is there a necessity? Necessity... It can also spring from personal development or a life stage change. Because in my opinion, if one person changes in the relationship, the other one has to grow too. And that growth is almost never parallel. So, so this doing this together, will lead to personal growth at the same time for a part of it.

Anne Philippi 20:31
You often have a situation where one person does a psychedelic experience, and comes home and is like, Oh, I've seen this, and now I know who I am. And the other person has no idea. And this could be like a serious issue, I think, at one point in a relationship, because sometimes this is such a different perception of reality, or like the life together, that is really almost like impossible to, to figure out. But so when you kind of create the the concept, or the let's say the therapy start in January, how would you imagine the integration of parts? So the, what the couple talks about after the experience?

Jeanine Souren 21:18
Yeah, that's, that's a good question. Like the total program consists of about 30 hours, oh, which hours are the inner journeys, but the rest of the hours are really couples therapy, including values, shared values, because very often, an individual's values system, before a journey is quite different from from when they come out. And then we try to see what were your shared values? What's your shared relationship vision? What's your role in it? What was your position? And, and how do you look in the same direction before you finish the program.

Anne Philippi 22:01
But I mean, like, of course, we didn't do this in the beginning, but I feel you guys have such a interesting background, and you both are very experienced couples therapist, one should say, just, you know, just starting this. So I would like to talk each one of you about how you found, let's say, the, the way to psychedelics, or how your, let's say, old idea of a therapist, turned into a therapist, 2.0 idea, maybe

Jeanine Souren 22:35
I like that I'm gonna steal that. So I'm also a sexologist, clinical setting, that always plays a role in relationships, especially when relationships are a little bit longer. So in my private practice, I found that I was running into a dead end street sometimes and that there was so much to be gained. But I also work with traumas and people with so I investigated, I started investigating, okay, what comes after EMDR, which is an eye movement, intervention, for trauma therapy, then I came on the path of the MDMA research. And then luckily, I have a partner who's who's very willing to adventure with me. So we, I wanted to know what happens in your brain when you do this. And so for the first time in my life in four years, I don't even drink alcohol. I'm not 48 Now, but I was then we tried MDMA, and I was writing everything down a heart rate, and what happened, what do I feel now and I was looking in his eyes, like, Okay, your pupils are so much now. And, and, but then after I thought, Okay, put down my paper, and I'm going to really feel what's happening. And well, as we all know, the inhibitions and the rigidity and thinking patterns significantly reduces. That's what led me to the legal options that we have available and ultimately, fast forward down the road to now this is what, what, what we do with psilocybin now, and how we can work with psilocybin and relationships. And I don't know if I lost my track here, but

Anne Philippi 24:31
what was so that experience, the experiences you made, actually convinced you that there's more to gain also in the psychedelic assisted therapy, right? I mean,

Jeanine Souren 24:46
look, I have a big toolbox, which is full of tools, any any intervention is there I've studied it and I actually have a license in it. But now I found out There was a second layer in the toolbox. And that's where the treasure is. And the second layer, really, it can be reached with psychedelics. So I am really thinking that of all the traditional approaches, that can be very beneficial to a certain point. But if you want the next level this

Anne Philippi 25:20
and then perhaps before you go, switch to you, but do you feel because I always feel like there's a strong need for a second left for next level? Because it's almost like reality. The reality we have now is not needs another truth factor 20 years ago? Yes, I would say

Jeanine Souren 25:40
absolutely. Because everybody has a roof above their head, we don't have to worry about can we pay the bill or not? We are our children go to good schools. So the basic human needs are met. So people look for meaning, right? They look for the why. And where can you find that better than how you relate how you relate with others? Oh, what about your connectivity? That's what is a human needs much more now than?

Anne Philippi 26:08
Yeah. And also, I mean, you can meet people online. Like there's no limitation, that's also a big challenge for a lot of people. If they can't adjust to that, but still, they have to do it. It's like such a different skill set you need to bring to the table. In terms of relationships. That wasn't the case. Even 10 years ago, I would say it was very different.

Jeanine Souren 26:33
And also relationships changed. like Esther Perel says, you know, way back when it was all about monogamy. But that is changing too. So there's polyamorous relationships, there's open relationships, there's much more available. But that also means how do you find meaning in relationships with ever format that takes place in and that's changing a changing landscape to

Anne Philippi 27:06
very interesting. So hence, I mean, please tell me a little bit like how you started as a psychiatrist. I mean, this is like you come from a very established world from a very kind of classic idea of psychiatry. And then now you're here executing experiments for truffles. Next year, maybe talk about

maybe I wasn't really established, or traditional psychiatrist to start with. I've done a lot of therapy myself, because I needed it. And most of it was already body, body orientated bonding psychotherapist, as wel. lit's all about holding it's we know that physical closeness sort of enables people to become emotionally more open. So the whole bonding psychotherapy is something that's been around for over 50 years, and was invented, so to speak by an American Psycho analyst, that already found out that token cure in itself wasn't that effective. So you need to body as well. So from from the first moment, I was already really aware of that. Talking in itself wasn't the answer, in itself, and medication in itself isn't a treatment, but will enable people to open up for a cure. So it was turning it around. So from a traditional point of view, we always were thinking that medication in itself would really heal and cure people. And my starting point was different in terms of when there's too much pain, you won't allow yourself to open up. And pain in itself makes people egocentric. So medication, as a painkiller can help people to open up. So that's in general, and this cycle, the cycle, pharmaceutical stuff that we use, helps until a certain point, I'm not saying it's useless, it isn't. I'm happy as a psychiatrist that I can help people with the stuff I can prescribe. in my late teens, early 20s, I came in contact with world famous book the teachings of Don Juan. And I don't know if you know, it's all about an American coming across a shaman, Indian, in Mexico, and it was all about peyote psychedelic experiences, and I was really into it, reading it in that promise myself, it's one time in my life, I will have the opportunity to experience this myself, I will do so it took a couple of decades in my first experience with was ayahuasca, never taken drugs, or whatever in my life. So this fall through I didn't quite didn't quite know what I was getting myself into. It was in the most horrific experience in my life, and the most beautiful and powerful experience in my life. And it made me aware of the potential incredible, because it opened up parts of me that I was never able to reach before with all the therapeutical stuff that I've been doing. Until then. So it made me really aware of how powerful this could be. But it also made me aware of how dangerous it could be, if it was not guided in, in a professional way by people that know what they were doing. And I had some experiences as well, or in ceremonies where people people definitely didn't know what they were doing. So, and I had clients that suffered the consequences of those experiences as well. So it made the very early on aware of the necessity of a structured and saved setting. So when this opportunity came around with field trip, opening the doors, I thought, well, this is the right combination of factors, there are people that are really passionate about working with psychedelics, like I am, but also know the importance of the right setting, or the structure, integration, the screening, because it's not, it's not for everyone. It definitely is not for everyone. So you need to be needs to be sure what you're doing. So I think, well, this is the right place to be for me at the moment.

And I mean, what if people talk to you, in the crowds, like if they want to do this? What's the reason and what brought them there? So what is their biggest fear? What do they fear? Most that could happen? After let's say, a secondary couples therapy? So is the biggest fear that they would break up? Or is it that they would be somebody else that they never thought I would be? Or what is the experience so far?

Hans van Wachem 33:22
Yeah, well, I think in general, and that's something I always tell to all of my clients, whether or not they come for partner relational therapy, or not. What I say to people is, you the most important side effect of individual psychotherapy is partner relational problems. Because if you change the relationship that you have with yourself, during the process, all the relationships with people outside of yourself will change as well, like Brian, saying, he can't see it apart. So it's inevitable that if you change your perspective, and the reasons why you chose your partner in the first place, change what you liked about him or her before you find annoying after a while. Yeah, sure. So. So dressing it's to rouse the same time. Yeah, well, it's your recognize stuff. Yeah. So this is why addressing it from a partner relational ship, point of view. Makes more sense, if you will sort of start this this adventure with two people at the same time. There's no guarantee that they will grow in the same direction, but they don't grow in the same direction they are more aware. They're of their own movement, instead of making the other person responsible for the change, that they can't help them themselves.

Jeanine Souren 35:10
So it's the individual growth in a relationship. And in our experience, we've seen a lot of individuals doing our psychedelic programs. And we always try to involve the home front at some point, because there is a big discrepancy between, as you said before between someone who has been through an experience and someone who hasn't, because you can talk about it, talk, talk, it's never the same as actually feeling. And with the psychedelic couples program, there is a new language, Hans called a shared language, because as you might know, there's five languages in love. One is words, I love you. The second one is touching, hugging. The third one is time, meaningful time. The fourth one presents, funnily enough, like gifts, and the fifth one is acts of service. Those are the five languages we know in love, right? And every person has a different way of expressing themselves, but each one of them is as valid as the other one. But this language, the psychedelic language, is feel.

Anne Philippi 36:22
Wow. So in language number seven, basically, right?

Jeanine Souren 36:28
Number six. The beauty of it is you're both learning a new language at the same time. It's like learning Mandarin. If one person isn't, has a head start at one month, you're never gonna catch up, or at least I could.

Anne Philippi 36:42
Yeah. But isn't this like a few, like the most feared thing is that people say, Okay, I don't want to feel too much in a relationship. Because then I'm kind of addicted. Dependent to dependent from the other person. Yeah,

Jeanine Souren 37:00
well, this program is not for the good. Yeah. So there's really zero again, come to us who has no previous couples therapy. Okay. Oh, hasn't had exploration pass? We are, we really have to look carefully if this is the right match? Because it's not the easiest one.

Anne Philippi 37:22
No, of course, but one thing I'm really interested in is that, I mean, there's all these have all these articles been in the last years that marriage basically a long marriage is something that was fabricated in the Western world. And because the romantic love is just a bourgeois invention, and in reality is a transactional business relationship. Before there was romantic love. So meaning that long marriages are basically something that's impossible to execute for, for human beings. So do you agree with that? Or that? Or is this something that we just because we just have problems with sustainable long term relationships these days?

Jeanine Souren 38:08
No. And at what age? Long term couples have the best sex? 60? Exactly.

Anne Philippi 38:17
I was just guessing, no idea.

Jeanine Souren 38:21
Above 50, okay. And because our machines don't work so quick, and fast and rapid anymore, as it did when we were 25. So that means more attention is needed from your partner to fine tuning the gears, but also to talking more about it, which means more depth your last fifth,

Anne Philippi 38:47
I love it, it's so true.

Jeanine Souren 38:52
What I'm, what I'm saying is to your question is, yeah, there's something to say for all our long term relationships or fashion, you could also think, or can we go deeper.

Anne Philippi 39:03
But I mean, most people would like to have a marriage or like a relationship like that. It's like, that's everybody's dream, right? To have a long term sustainable, that everybody's but in general, I feel like people are longing for meaningful relationships and at the same time saying that that if you don't have them, that is often contributing to the depression, according to Gabor ma T. That if you're not in nature, if you don't have meaningful relationships, if you kind of isolated that's a huge part and feeling depressed, and maybe also, I don't know, like just disconnected from from life in general. So I mean, I feel always that and we've talked to owner about this and in the podcast before, is that a few like psychedelic treatments or like what you guys are doing in the Netherlands? could actually if you do this like twice a year as a couple, as friends, also as a group of friends, or as a family, also in the long term, maybe Dad, it will actually really save your lifetime and make your life just better. I mean, I'm totally convinced this is why I built this company. We are totally pushing these topics because it's not only like the single person and their experience, it's also like a group experience. Right? What do you guys thoughts on that?

Hans van Wachem 40:35
Well, when you talk about meaningful relationships, think I think that's the key. What makes a relationship meaningful? And I make the distinction between conditional love and unconditional right. Okay. Relationships, most of it about conditions, you have to meet the right conditions. Yeah, in that you can look it in it's more you can say, a cynical approach. It's a, it's a business deal. A business deal that goes on to the deepest level of you have a business deal with your, with the butcher, and with the, with the guy working in the shop, I give you money you give me what I need is a business deal. it's a transaction. And when you go to the deepest level, and there's no coincidence, I think that in Anglo Saxon language, when you refer to your loved one, you refer to your baby. Hi, baby. Hi, babe. How you doing?

Anne Philippi 41:41
True. Yeah. That's strange, isn't it?

Hans van Wachem 41:49
Hey, babe, doing, there's no coincidence there. So it's killing off the layer. So talking about meaningful relationship, you're talking about intimate relationships. And then you enter a reom. And that precedes words. And that's where the talking therapy cure sort of ends, you can talk about stuff that you are aware of, that you can put into words, but we had a life Previous to this, right. That's the domain that can be opened up by psychedelics, right? More than anything, you can say, hypnosis as well. But my experience is, this will go deeper than that. And then you approach a realm of what you call the symbiotic part of relationship that we all share. And that's where lots of trauma energy is still based into. So you can work consciously on sort of becoming aware of whatever happened to you and work it out of your system by talking by whatever. But in intimate partner relationships, it's all about these are called Bluetooth connection. And that's there's a lot of, well, pollution in Bluetooth connections, right? So what is a meaningful relationship, that it's learning, learning from one another? And, again, when you come to the four aspects of the necessity of the willingness, etc, right? So it's an, it's an opportunity, it's a gift, it's a gift, to be able to learn about yourself through your partner. And if it's the same partner, then you have worked through all the layers that are on top. So this is a golden opportunity, in longer lasting relationships, to go to the bottom of it. Right. So that's why I think that longer lasting relationships are a beautiful gift. But it takes effort. It takes willingness, it takes awareness, it takes know well, what we talked about. So I think I hope there will be still room for longer lasting relationships. Looking at fingers pointing in another direction. I think it's about 5050 50%. People will get divorced and still about 50% that will stay married. And I think this those numbers will change towards more separation more isolated, more. superficial.

Anne Philippi 44:58
They're the that's The short version of why, or like what people are looking into when they do psychedelics is often like, who was the person I am without the trauma, right? This is like what you start to look into. So if you don't do these codependent things anymore, what happens to me then if you don't do these self sabotaging things anymore, what happens then So, and I feel sometimes if people, if two people could meet that are less traumatized, there would be almost like a natural independence that is no longer like, oh, I need to be independent. They like this, this artificial independence that like, you know what I mean, like, and it's really interesting that you, the moment you move towards, if I have good moments, like without my trauma, then I feel like, I don't really need it. Sometimes I don't even need to reach out to that person all like all the time during the day, but I still feel connected to that person. So and I think that's a state that we almost unlearned, because also of digital devices, like texting all the time, how are you? Oh, good, meaningful conversations. So. So my question would be like, so let's say if you realize in a in a conversation before the therapy, that one person has, like you said earlier, has maybe is suffering from PTSD, or has been really traumatized through sexual abuse or anything. So how do you kind of balance this then with the other person who was who might have not such a bad experience in terms of relationships?

Jeanine Souren 46:46
Yeah, well, that that that is quite regular, it's quite common that one person, for example, suffers from anxiety, depression, or a trauma, and thus, it has an immediate effect on the relationships on the children on the partner. So we don't we're not looking for a match in severity, certain simple. We all. But what we do pay attention to is, how is the partner dealing with all this? And we find with our individual trajectories here, what when when we invite the partner, for one conversation, they are so grateful that someone is also giving them attention? Because it's not easy to be the partner? Of course, yeah. So so in the couples program, it's it doesn't, it doesn't it's not a contraindication, if one person has a trauma or depression or anxiety, and the other one doesn't?

Hans van Wachem 47:45
Yeah, and well, again, at one point in their lives they met. And the trauma was already there, and might not have been aware, it might not have been surfaced, but it was already there. So that's the big mystery to start with. Out of all the people that they could have chosen, they've chosen one another. And there's these law. Mr. Bao, one renowned family therapist said people with similar ego issues find themselves in relationships. So it's not like one of them is the patient and the other one is perfect. Now, under the surface, there is this some most of the times necessity to interact. And when one of the people or one of the partners is doing psychotherapy, it changes in it makes them more autonomous, because that's the whole process of therapy, right? Growing towards a mature autonomy. And then sometimes the trauma of this so called normal partner shows up because there was this innate necessity to be in the one up position, right. Right. So it can't tell. Yeah, but what the content of the book is.

Anne Philippi 49:34
You know what guys, I think we have to do another round after this. After this has launched because this is obviously like, the number one topic that people are interested in. I will be more interested in than any other things. But thank you so much for being on the show. We have you on an AMA very soon. And then people can ask me like an Ask me anything. But I mean, I think you're really missing And then people can listen to the episode and then ask you another questions to actually book themselves in January into your hands. Look. Thank you so much guys for being on the show it it was amazing.